Original Douay Rheims Bible (1582 & 1610)

The Holy Ghospel of Iesvs Christ According to Saint Lvke

HOLY weeke.
Iudas doth sel him to the Iewes. 7. After the old Pascal, 19. he giueth to his Disciples the bread of life in a mystical Sacrifice of his body and bloud, for an euerlasting commemoration of his Passion. 21. He couertly admonisheth the traitour. 24. Against their ambitious contention he sheweth them that the maioritie of any among them in this world is for their seruice, as his owne also was: 28. & how he wil exalt them al in the world to come: 31. foretelling Peter the singular priuiledge of his faith neuer failing, 33. and his three negations: 35. and how they shal al now be put to their shiftes. 39. And that night, after his praier with sweating of bloud, 42. he is taken of the Iewes men, Iudas being their Captaine: yet shewing them both by miracle and word, that they could doe nothing vnto him but by his owne permission. 54. Then in the cheefe Priestes house he is thrise denied of Peter, 63. shamefully abused of his keepers, 66. and in the morning impiously condemned of their Councel, for confessing himself to be the Sonne of God.
1. The Passion according to S. Luke in these two chapters, is the Ghospel at Masse vpon Tenebre wenesday.
TENEBRE wenesday.
* Mat. 26,1.
Mark 14,11.
AND the festiual day of the Azymes approched, which is called Pasche: 2. & the cheefe Priests & the Scribes sought how they might kil him: but they feared the people. 3. And Satan ented into Iudas that was surnamed Iscariote, one of the Twelue. 4. And he went, and talked with the cheefe Priests and the Magistrates, how he might betray him to them. 5. And they were glad, and bargained to giue him money. 6. And he promised. And he sought opportunitie to betray him apart from the multitudes. 7. * MAVNDI Thursday.
Mat. 16,17.
Mark 14,12.
And the day of the Azymes came, wherein it was necessarie that the Pasche should be killed. 8. And he sent Peter and Iohn, saying: Goe and prepare vs the Pasche, that we may eate. 9. But they said: Where wilt thou that we prepare it? 10. And he said to them: Behold, as you enter into the citie, there shal meete you a man carying a pitcher of water: follow him into the house into which he entreth, 11. and you shal say to the Good-man of the house: The Maister saith to thee, where is the inne where I may eate the Pasche with my Disciples? 12. And he wil shew you a great refectorie adorned: and there prepare. 13. And they going, found as he said to them, and prepared the Pasche. 14. And when the houre was come, he sate downe, and the twelue Apostles with him. 15. And he said to them: With desire I haue desired.
The old Paschal ceaseth and a new is instituted.
This great desire he had to eate this Paschal lambe, was not for itself, which he had celebrated many yeares before: but because he meant immediatly after the Paschal of the Law was sacrificed and eaten, to institute the other new Paschal in the oblation and eating of his owne body, by which the old Paschal should end and be fulfilled, and in which the old Testament and Law ceasing, the Kingdom of God (which is the state of the new Testament and of his Church) should begin. For, the very passage from the old Law to the new was in this one supper.
With desire I haue desired to eate this Pasche with you before I suffer. 16. For I say to you, that from this time I wil not eate it, til it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God. 17. And Taking the chalice.
Two cups or chalices at Christes last supper.
This chalice according to the very euidence of the text itself also, is not the second part of the Holy Sacrament, but that solemne cup of wine which belonged as a libament to the offering and eating of the Paschal lambe. Which being a figure specially of the holy Chalice, was there drunken by our Sauiour, and giuen to the Apostles also, with declaration that it should be the last cuppe of the Law, not to be drunken any more, til it should be drunken new in the Kingdom of God, that is to say, in the celebration of the B. Sacrament of his bloud of the new Testament. And by this place it seemeth very like that the wordes in S. Matthew, *I wil not drinke of the fruit of the vine &c, were pertaining to this cuppe of the old Law, and not to the Holy Sacrament, though they be there by repetition or recapitulation spoken after the holy Chalice.
*Mat. 26,29.
taking the chalice he gaue thankes, and said: Take and deuide among you. 18. For I say to you, that I wil not drinke of the generation of the vine, til the Kingdom of God doe come. 19. * Mat. 26,26.
Mark 14,12.
1 Corinth. 11,24.
And taking bread, he gaue thankes, and brake; and gaue it to them, saying: This is my body.
The real presence.
Although sense tel thee it is bread, yet it is the body, according to his wordes, let faith confirme thee, iudge not by sense. After the wordes of our Lord let no doubt rise in thy mind. Cyril. mystag. 4. Of the veritie of flesh and bloud there is left no place to doubt: by the profession of our Lord him self, and by our faith it is flesh and bloud indeed. Is not this truth? To them be it vntrue, which deny IESVS CHRIST to be true God. Hilar li. 8 de Trinit.
Tʜɪꜱ ɪꜱ ᴍʏ ʙᴏᴅʏ Which is giuen.
Christ sacrificed his body and bloud in Sacrament at his supper.
As the former wordes make and proue his body present, so these wordes plainely signifie, that it is present, as giuen, offered or sacrificed for vs: and being vttered in the *present tence, it signifieth not only that it should afterward be giuen or offered on the Crosse, but that it was then also in the Sacrament giuen and offered for vs. Whereby it is inuincibly proued that his Body is present as an Host or Sacrifice: and that the making or consecrating thereof must needes be Sacrificing. And therfore the holy Fathers in this sense cal it a Sacrifice.
The Sacrifice of the Alter.
Nissen. orat. 1 de resur. Leo ser. 7 et 8 de Pass. Hesychius li. 2. in Leuit. c. 8. Grego. ho. 37 in Euang. et Dial. li. 4. c. 59. Cyrillus Hieros. mystag. 5. Dionys. Eccl. Hier. c. 3. Ignat. ep. 5. ad Smyrn. Iustinus dial. cum Tryph. circ. med. Iren. li. 4. c. 32 et 34. Tertul. de cult, fæm. et ad vxor. li. 2. Cypr. ep. ad Cæcil. et de Cæn. Do. Euseb. Demonst. euang. li. 1 c. 10. **Nazian. orat 1 cont. Iulianum. Chryso. ho. 83 in 26 Mat. et li. 6 de Sacerd. Ambros. li. 4 de Sacram. c. 6. et li. 3. Offic. c. 48. Hiro. in ep. ad Hebid. q. 2. et ad Euagr. ep. 126 to. 3. August. in psal. 33. conc. 1. et alibi sæpe. Græci omnes in 9 Hebr. et Primasius. Conc. Nic. 1. 14. Ephes. ad Nestor, Constantinop. 6. can. 32. Nicen. 2 act. 6 to. 3. Lateran. Constant. Flor. Trid.
*quod datur τὸ διδόμενον
**Cyril. Alex, anathem, 21.
ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ɪꜱ ɢɪᴠᴇɴ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴏᴠ. Doe this.
The Apostles are made Priestes, and the Sacrament of holy Orders instituted.
In these wordes the holy Sacrament of Order is instituted, because power and commission to doe the principal act and worke of Priesthood, is giuen to the Apostles: that is, to doe that which Christ then did concerning his body: which was, to make and offer his body as a sacrifice for vs and for al that haue need of Sacrifice, and to giue it to be eaten as Christes body sacrificed, to al faithful. For as the Paschal lambe was first sacrificed, and then eaten; so was his body: and thus to doe he here giueth commission and authoritie to the Apostles, and to al Priests which be their successors in this matter. Dionys. cæl. Hierar. c. 3. Iren. li. 4. c. 52. Cyp. ep. ad Cecil. Chrys. ho. 17 inep. ad Heb. Ambros. in Ps. 38. & in c. 10 ad Hebr.
Doe this For a commemoration.
A commemoratiue Sacrifice is a true sacrifice, no lesse then the prefiguratiue Sacrifices were true Sacrifices.
This Sacrifice and Sacrament is to be done perpetually in the Church for the commemoration of Christ, specially of his Passion: that is to say, that it may be a liuely representation, exemplar, and forme of his Sacrifice vpon the crosse. Of which one oblation on the crosse, not only al other Sacrifices of the Law were figures, but this also: though this in a more nigh, high, mystical, and maruelous sort then any other. For in them Christs death was signified as by resemblance and similitudes of external creatures and bodies of brute beasts: but in this of the new Testament, his body visibly sacrificed on the crosse, in and by the self same body sacrificed and immolated in Sacrament and vnder the shapes of bread and wine, is most neerely and perfectly resembled. And therfore this is most properly commemoratiue, as most neerely expressing the very condition, nature, efficacie, sort, and substance of that on the crosse. *For which the holy Fathers cal it the very self same sacrifice (though in other manner) which was done on the crosse, as it is the self same thing, that is offered in the Sacrament, and on the crosse. Whereby you may see the peruersitie of the Protestants or their ignorance, that thinke it therfore not to be Christs body because it is a memorie of his body or a figure of his body vpon the crosse: nor to be a true Sacrifice because it is a commemoratiue Sacrifice. For as the thing that more liuely, neerely, and truely resembleth or representeth, is a better figure then that which shadoweth it afar off: so this his body in the Sacrament, is more perfectly a figure of Christs body and Sacrifice, then any other. Christ himself the Sonne of God is a figure and character of his Fathers Person, being yet of the self same substance. And Christs body transfigured on the holy Mount, was a figure and resemblance of his Person glorified in Heauen.
To be a figure of a thing, and yet the thing itself, repugneth not.
Euen so is his body in the Sacrament to a faithful man that knoweth by his beleefe grounded on Christs owne word, that in the one forme is his body, in the other his bloud, the most perfect representation of his death that can be. As for the Sacrifice, it is no lesse a true Sacrifice, because it is commemoratiue of Christs Passion, then those of the old Testament were the lesse true, because they were prefiguratiue. For that is the condition annexed to al Sacrifice of euery Law, to represent Christs Passion.
*Ambr. in 10. Hebr.
Chrys. ho. 17. in ep. ad Hebr.
for a commemoration of me. 20. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: The Greeke is here so plaine, that there was very bloud in the chalice shed for vs, that Beza saith it is a corruption in the greeke. See the Annota. vpon this place. Tʜɪꜱ ɪꜱ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄʜᴀʟɪᴄᴇ ᴏꜰ The new Testament in my bloud.
Both Testaments dedicated in bloud.
Moyses tooke the bloud of the first sacrifice that was made after the giuing of the Law Exod. 24. and with bloud confirmed the couenant and compact betwixt God and his people, and so dedicated the old Testament, which without bloud (saith S. Paul*) was not dedicated. Moyses put that bloud also into a standing peece, and sprinkled al the people &c. with the same, and said these formal wordes: This is the bloud of the couenant &c. or (as it is read in S. Paul) of the Testament which God hath deliuered vnto you. Vnto al which, Christ in this action about the second part of this his Sacrifice, in euery of the Euangelists most cleerely alludeth: expressing that the new Testament is begun and dedicated in his bloud in the Chalice, no lesse then the old was dedicated, begun, and ratified in that bloud of calues conteined in the goblet of Moyses. With which his owne bloud he sprinkled inwardly his Apostles as the first fruits of the new Testament, imitating the wordes of Moyses, and saying: This is the Chalice the new Testament &c: Which the other Euangelists spake more plainly: This is my bloud of the new Testament.
The external religion of the new Testament principally in the Sacrifice of the Altar.
By al which it is most certaine, that Christs bloud in the Chalice, is the bloud of Sacrifice, and that in this Sacrifice of the Altar consisteth the external religion and proper seruice of the new Testament, no lesse then the soueraigne worship of God in the old Law did consist in the Sacrifices of the same. For though Christes Sacrifice on the Crosse and his bloud shed for vs there, be the general price, redemption, and satisfaction for vs al, and is the last and perfectest sealing or confirmation of the new law and Testament: yet the Seruice and Sacrifice which the people of the new Testament might resort vnto could not be that violent action of the Crosse, but this on the Altar, which by Christs owne appointment is and shal be the eternal office of the new Testament, and the continual application of al the benefites of his Passion vnto vs.
*Hebr. 9.
ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴡ ᴛᴇꜱᴛᴀᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪɴ ᴍʏ ʙʟᴏᴠᴅ, ᴡʜɪᴄʜ Which shal be shed.
The chalice shed for vs, must needes signifie, the bloud therein, not wine, and the same Sacrificed.
vers. 20. calix qui
the chalice which
τὸ ποτήριον το ἐκχυννόμενον
It is much to be obserued that the relatiue, which, in these wordes is not gouerned or ruled (as some would perhaps thinke) of the nowne bloud, but of the word chalice. Which is most plaine by the Greeke: Which taketh away al cauillations and shifts from the Protestants, both against the real presence and the true Sacrificing. For it sheweth euidently, that the bloud as the contents of the chalice, or as in the chalice, is shed for vs (for so the Greeke readeth in the present tense) and not only as vpon the crosse. And therfore as it followeth thereof inuincibly, that it is no bare figure, but his bloud indeed, so it ensueth necessarily, that it is a Sacrifice and propitiatorie, because the chalice (that is the Bloud contained in the same) is shed for our sinnes. For al that know the manner of the Scriptures speaches, know also that, Bloud to be shed for sinne, is to be sacrificed for propitiation or for pardon of sinnes.
Beza condemneth the Ghospel itself of falshood and impossibilitie.
And this text proueth al this so plainly, that *Beza turneth himself roundly vpon the Holy Euangelist, charging him with Solœcisme or false Greeke, or els that the wordes (which yet he confesseth to be in al copies Greeke and Latin) are thrust into the text out of some other place: which he rather standeth vpon then that S. Luke should speake incongruously in so plaine a matter. And therfore he saith plainely that it can not be truely said neither of the chalice itself nor of the contents thereof: which is indeed to giue the lie to the Blessed Euangelist, or to deny this to be Scripture. So cleere is the Scripture for vs, so miserable flights and shifts is falshood put vnto, God be thanked.
*Annot. no. Test. 1556.
ꜱʜᴀʟ ʙᴇ ꜱʜᴇᴅ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴏᴠ. 21. * Mat. 26,21.
Mark 14,20.
Iohn 13,18.
But yet behold, the hand of him that betraieth me, is with me on the table. 22. And the Sonne of man indeed goeth according to that which is determined: but yet woe to that man by whom: he shal be betrayed. 23. And they began to question among them selues, which of them it should be that should doe this. 24. The Ghospel vpon S. Apollinaris day. Iulij 23. * Mat. 20,25.
Mark 10,42.
And there fel also a Contention.
The Apostles perceiuing Christs departure from them and his Kingdom to be neere, as infirme men and not yet indowed with the Spirit of God, began to haue emulation and cogitations of Superiority one ouer another which our Maister represseth in them by exhortation to humilitie and by his owne example, that being their Lord, yet so lately serued them: not forbidding Maioritie or Superioritie in them, but pride, tyranny, and contempt of their inferiours.
contention between them, which of them seemed to be greater. 25. And he said to them: The Kinges of the Gentiles ouerrule them; and they that haue power vpon them, are called beneficial. 26. But you not so: but he that is the greater among you, let him become as the yonger: & he that is the leader, as the waiter. 27. For which is greater, he that sitteth at the table, or he that ministreth? is not he that sitteth? but I am in the middes of you, as he that ministreth: 28. & you are they that haue remained with me in my tentations. 29. And I dispose to you, as my Father disposed to me, a Kingdom: 30. that you may eate & drinke vpon my table in my Kingdom, & may sit Straight after the former louing checke and admonition, he promiseth to them al that haue beene partakers with him of his miseries in this life, greater pre-eminence in heauen, then any Potentate can haue in this world, and therfore that they need not be careful of dignitie or Supremacie. vpon thrones, iudging the twelue tribes of Israel. 31. And our Lord said: Simon Simon.
Peters faith shal neuer faile.
Lastly to put them out of doubt, he calleth Peter twise by name, and telling him the Diuels desire to sifte and trie them al to the vttermost (as he did that night) saith that he hath specially prayed for him, to this end that his faith should neuer faile, and that he being once conuerted, should after that for euer confirme, establish or vphold the rest in their faith. Which is to say, that Peter is that man whom he would make Superiour ouer them and the whole Church. Whereby we may learne that it was thought fit in the prouidence of God, that he who should be the Head of the Church, should haue a special priuiledge by Christes prayer and promise neuer to faile in faith and that none other either Apostle, Bishop, or Priest may chalenge any such singular or special prerogatiue either of his Office or person, otherwise then ioining in faith with Peter and by holding of him. The danger (saith S. Leo✟) was common to al the Apostles, but our Lord tooke special care of Peter, that the state of al the rest might be more sure, if the Head were inuincible: God so dispensing the aide of his grace, that the assurance and strength which Christ gaue to Peter, might redound by Peter to the rest of the Apostles: S. August. also, Christ praying for Peter, prayed for the rest, because in the Pastour and Prelate the people is corrected or commended. And S. Ambrose writeth, that Peter after his tentation was made Pastour of the Church, because it was said to him, Thou being conuerted, confirme thy brethren.
The Romane faith of Peters successours cannot faile.
Neither was this the priuilege of S. Peters person, but of his Office, that he should not faile in faith but euer confirme al other in their faith. For the Church, for whose sake that priuiledge was thought necessarie in Peter the Head thereof, was to be preserued no lesse afterward, then in the Apostles time. Whereupon al the Fathers apply this priuiledge of not failing and of confirming other in faith, to the Romane Church and Peters successours in the same. To which (saith S. Cyprian*) infidelitie or false faith can not come. And S. Bernard saith writing to Innocentius Pope, against Abailardus the Heretike: **We must referre to your Apostleship al the scandals and perils which may fal, in matter of faith specially. For there the defects of faith must be holpen, where faith can not faile. For to what other See was it euer said: I haue prayed for thee Peter, that thy faith do not faile?
Popes may erre personally, not iudicially, or definitiuely.
So say the Fathers: not meaning that none of Peters seat can erre in person, vnderstanding, priuate doctrine or writings, but that they can not nor shal not euer iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshood or heresie against the Catholike faith, in their Consistories, Courts, Councels, Decrees, Deliberations or Consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies, doubts, or questions of faith as shal be proposed vnto them: because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren. And no maruel that our Maister would haue his vicars Consistorie & Seat infallible, ***seeing euen in the old Law the high Priesthood and Chaire of Moyses wanted not great priuiledge in this case, though nothing like the Churches and Peters prerogatiue. But in both, any man of sense may see the difference between the person, and the Office, as wel in doctrine as life. Liberius in persecution might yeald, Marcellinus for feare might commit Idolatrie, Honorius might fal to Heresie, and more then al this, some Iudas might creepe into the Office: and yet al this without preiudice of the Office and Seate, in which (saith S. Augustinea) our Lord hath set the doctrine of truth. Caiphas by priuiledge of his Office prophecied right of Christ, but according to his owne knowledge and faith, knew not Christ. The Euangelists and other penners of holy writ, for the execution of that function had the assistance of God, and so far could not possibly erre: but that Luke, Marke, Salomon or the rest might not erre in other their priuate writings; that we say not.
The learned fathers sought to the B. of Rome for resolution of doubts.
It was not the personal wisedom, vertue, learning, or faith of Christs Vicars, that made S. Bernardb seeke to Innocentius the third: S. Augustine and the Bishops of Afrike to Innocentius the first, and to Celestinus, ep. 90. 91. 95: S. Chrisostomec to the said Innocentius: S. Basil to the Pope in his time ep. 52.: S. Hierom to Damasus ep 57. 58. to. 2. but it was the prerogatiue of their Office and higher degree of Vnction, and Christs ordinance, that would haue al Apostles and Pastours in the world, for their confirmation in faith and Ecclesiastical regiment, depend on Peter. The lacke of knowledge and humble acceptation of which Gods prouidence, that is, that one is not honoured and obeyed of al the brotherhood, is the cause of al Schismes and Heresies, saith S. Cypriand. A point of such importance, that al the Twelue being in Apostleship like, Christ would yet for the better keeping of vnity and truth, haue one to be Head of them al, that a Head being once appointed, occasion of Schisme might be taken away, saith S. Hierom. li. 1. adu. Iouinian. c. 14.
✟Serm. 3. Assump. ad Pont. li. q. Noui. Test. 9. 75 to 4.
*Cypr. ep. 55 nu. 6.
**Bern. ep. 190.
***Deu. 11.
aAug. ep. 166. in fine.
bBern. ep. 190.
cChry. ep. 1. & 2.
dCyp. ep. 55. nu. 2.
Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath required to haue you for to sift as wheate: 32. Bᴠᴛ ɪ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ᴘʀᴀɪᴇᴅ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇᴇ, that thy faith faile not: and thou once conuerted, confirme they brethren. 33. Who said to him: Lord, with thee I am readie to goe both into prison and vnto death. 34. And he said: * Mat. 26,34.
Mark 14,30.
I say to thee Peter, the cocke shal not crow to day, til thou denie thrise that thou knowest me. 35. And he said to them: When I sent you * Mat. 10,9.
Luke 10,4.
without purse and skrip and shoes, did you lacke any thing? But they said: Nothing. 36. He said therfore vnto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, likewise also a skrip: and he that hath not, let him sel his coate, and buy a sword. 37. For I say to you, that yet this that is written must be fulfilled in me: * Isai. 53,12. And with the wicked was he reputed. For those things that are concerning me, haue an end. 38. But they said: Lord, loe two swordes here. But he said to them: It is enough. 39. * Mat. 26,36.
Mark 14,32.
Iohn 18,1.
And going forth he went according to his custome into mount-Oliuet. And his Disciples also followed him. 40. * Thursday night. And when he was come to the place, he said to them: Pray, lest ye enter into tentation. 41. And he was pulled away from them a stones cast: and kneeling he praied, 42. saying: Father, if thou wilt, transferre this chalice from me. But yet not my wil, but thine be done. 43. And there appeared to him an Angel from Heauen, strengthening him. And being in an agonie, he praied the longer. 44. And his sweat became as drops of bloud trikling downe vpon the earth. 45. And when he was risen vp from praier, and was come to his Disciples, he found them sleeping for pensiuenes. 46. And he said to them: Why sleep you? arise, pray, lest you enter into tentation. 47. As he was yet speaking, behold a multitude: and he that was called Iudas, one of the Twelue, he went before them, and approched to Iᴇꜱᴠꜱ, for to kisse him. 48. And Iᴇꜱᴠꜱ said to him: Iudas with a kisse doest thou betray the Sonne of man? 49. And they that were about him, seeing what would be, said to him: Lord, shal we strike with the sword? 50. And one the them smote the seruant of the high Priest: and cut off his right eare. 51. But Iᴇꜱᴠꜱ answering, said: Suffer ye thus farre. And when he had touched his eare, he healed him. 52. And Iᴇꜱᴠꜱ said to them that were come vnto him, the cheefe Priests, and Magistrates of the Temple, & Ancients: As it were to a theefe are you come forth with swordes and clubs? 53. When I was daily with you in the Temple, you did not lay handes vpon me, but this is your houre, and the power of darkenesse. 54. And apprehending him, they led him to the high Priests house: but Peter followed a farre off. 55. And a fire being kindled in the middes of the court, & they sitting about it, Peter was in the middes of them. 56. Whom when a certaine wench saw sitting at the light, and had beheld him, she said: This fellow also was with him. 57. But he denied him, saying: Woman, I know him not. 58. And after a while another man seeing him, said: And thou art of them. But Peter said: O man I am not. 59. And after the space as it were one houre, a certaine other man affirmed, saying: Verily this fellow also was with him: for he is also a Galilæan. 60. And Peter said: Man I know not what thou sayest. And incontinent as he was yet speaking, the cocke crew. 61. And our Lord turning looked on Peter. And Peter remembred the word of our Lord, as he had said: That before the cocke crow thou shalt thrise denie me. 62. And Peter going forth a doores, wept bitterly. 63. And the man that held him, mocked him, beating him. 64. And they did blind-fold him, and smote his face. And they asked him saying: Prophecie, who it is that smote thee? 65. And blaspheming many other things they said against him. 66. And when it was day, there assembled the Ancients of the people and cheefe Priests and Scribes, and they brought him into their Councel, saying: 67. If thou be Christ tel vs. And he said to them: If I tel you, you wil not beleeue me: 68. if also I aske, you wil not answer me, nor dimisse me. 69. But from henceforth the Sonne of man shal be sitting on the right hand of the power of God. 70. And they al said: Art thou then the Sonne of God? Who said: You say that I am. 71. But they said: What need we testimonie any further? For our selues haue heard of his owne mouth.